Blog Asks “If Michelle Was White.” More Like Could Harold Ford Jr. Get Elected Dogcatcher In Blackland?

The Chicago Tribune’s Exploring Race blog has posed the question “What if Michelle Obama was white?” This “well, duh” question has already been explored by most black blogs and the universal answer is that he wouldn’t have even been a senator, let alone president.

But they asked anyway, you know, for poops and giggles I suppose and they will likely get some passionate responses (and passionate responses to those responses), but the reality is despite all of our progress in the better acceptance of interracial couples, it’s hard to get elected to office when you are a black person married a white person.

Case in point: Former Tennessee Rep. Harold Ford, Jr. who I wrote about earlier this year. A member of our quasi “black aristocracy” (as in he comes from a political family of influence and means), Ford reached prominence on his family name and good looks, then ran a campaign for the senate where he lost by a narrow margin. Some say he was hurt by his religious pandering. Others say he was hurt by a Republican backed commercial that portrayed Ford as a white woman chasing, playboy bunny hound.

Which was kind of, sort of true, but mean/racist because what did that have to do with being a senator? Then Ford married Emily Threlkeld and ALL. KINDS. OF. HELL. broke loose in “Blackland.”

Comments from Big Head DC’s blog:

“I think he has not given his political career any thought. If he runs for any office again, surely he won’t win. You don’t carry the black vote and marry white. I will never vote for him again.”– Pat, Memphis

“The reason so many blacks are upset is because Harold Ford Jr. has always courted the black vote and black people except when it comes to his marriage. I am sure when he is running for office and goes into the black neighborhoods he will not take his white wife along. This also gives black women the assumption that as black men progress their appreciation of black women decreases. It also gives the impression that they are saying “I have made it and here is my trophy”!!!!!” — Connie, Memphis

“The only use Harold had for blacks period in the 9th Congressional Dist was votes. After 10 years of his representation we ALL need Anus Reconstruction Surgery. He did a number on us. This young man took Self Serving Politician to a new level.” — Anonymous

And there is this long, over-the-top, angry note which pretty much sums up how well this all went over with some blacks. It essentially accuses Ford of treason, then slaps him around for a perceived slight against Martin Luther King, Jr.:

This couple had the nerve to have their engagement party on MLK’s 40th anniversary marking his assassination in Memphis. This was very disrespectful to the dead leader and to the community. It was insensitive and disrespectful to have an engagement party on this day at all. However adding injury to insult, MLK and his black wife did not make the sacrifices that they did so that well off black men can marry white women as trophies. (Seventy) of black families are being raised by single mothers, which is leading to the deterioration of the country as a whole. Children who are abandoned by their fathers are becoming negative statistics and impacting the entire society. Many black men do not value black women enough to marry them and raise their families, partially due to the after effects of slavery and the medias propaganda that white women are more desirable and should be valued. As a politician this man is supposed to be a role model, by this action he is setting the example that well off black men should abandon their responsibilities to their communities and marry trophy white women who should be valued more than black women. His fiancée is an unattractive woman, with a seemingly mediocre background and would probably never have married an attractive well off man of her own race. So one would get the impression that this is not love, but that he is showcasing a white “trophy” on MLK’s anniversary, which is the height of disrespect and in my opinion shows that he is brainwashed, confused and needs deprogramming. Many people view this marriage as political suicide.

You don’t have to be an sociologist or a psychologist to figure out that despite our progress there are a still a lot insecurities in the black community and nothing brings them out more passionately than that shunted feeling black people (especially black women) get when black men who “make it” marry outside their race.

When you’re used to getting kicked around it’s hard not to take it personal. Even I get that feeling from time-to-time and I like to considering myself pretty egalitarian about the issue. I’m almost two people about it with the logical side of my brain saying people should be judged by their character and can marry whomever they want because their marriage is about them, not me and I wouldn’t want someone nosing in my personal business, casting judgment on my intentions.

But my gut wants to strangle Elin Woods.

It’s insane because Tiger Woods is not my personal property, so what do I care? Yet I do. This is because I grew up watching black women get unceremoniously dumped all the time. Or seeing them not in the running at all as viable mates. I can’t help it. I take it personal, but I temper my response, my logic reminding me that this is NOT about me.

Plus, being a trophy wife isn’t exactly an ideal thing, considering a lot of it is hedged
on your appearance, but it’s the wanting to be desired that gets us. Everyone wants to be desired. Everyone. Especially black women. Hence why being married to a white person, particularly a black man married to a white woman, is a death knell to getting the black vote.

Black women and older black voters make up the bulk of the black vote and they are the ones most likely to not approve due to that giant “I’ve been personally affronted!” feeling they would have every time they’d see someone like Emily Threlkeld’s smiling face. And any smart person running against someone like Ford would use this rift against him, never quite saying he was a sell-out, but would repeatedly question his loyalty to his constituents, arguing that Ford would only serve his own interests, not that of the community.

It just wouldn’t work. All things aren’t that equal in Blackland yet.

Not that white people are 100 percent comfortable with this notion either. There’s a reason why a lot of politicians are as personally boring as possible (straight, married to someone who is not “exotic” in any kind of way, Christian, usually with some kids), because that’s what voters what. There are exceptions to the rule (Jeb Bush is married to a Latina — but then he was governor of Florida, so that probably helped him), but for most politicians the rule of the day is to be married, preferrably within their own ethnicity and religious sect, be Christian, be heterosexual and not to have any kink in the closest that could come out to haunt them.

(Like paid hookers or interns or Euro sex clubs or nasty text messages or cocaine or secret half-black, out-of-wedlock children or male pages or hook-up trolling in airport men’s restrooms.)

None of that stuff. Can’t have it. Americans are both notorious freaks and prudes all at the same time, hence all the politicians have to at least be able to appear as close to June and Ward Cleaver as possible. People want the fantasy. They will vote for the fantasy.

For many in Blackland, a white woman is simply not part of that fantasy.


172 responses to “Blog Asks “If Michelle Was White.” More Like Could Harold Ford Jr. Get Elected Dogcatcher In Blackland?”

  1. Every time I see a comment like this it makes me wonder why my worldview is so different. Certainly it’s not generational. I’m 44 yo black woman who was borned and raised in Alabama. I still live in the Deep South, but I simply have never considered black men to be my exclusive property. I’ve never cared who they dated/mated with and didn’t see their choices as a slight to me. I’m grateful as hell that this is true, but it’s really odd to me that it’s so. I like HF as a politician. I thought his Senate run was something of a trial balloon for Obama’s run. If he hadn’t done so well, I don’t think it would’ve boded well for the O-man. His run was a microcosm for Obama’s 50-state strategy as he went to East Tennessee, an area that’s not exactly Negro friendly and made inroads there. I really don’t care who he or Tiger Woods or anybody else besides my own husband marries. I think it’s absurd that black women feel this way, and it’s a mindset that’s hurting no one for us. If he did his job and served his Congressional district well then that’s all that should be required of him. Otherwise we all do ourselves a disservice when we submit a candidate’s wife to a paper bag test to garner our approval.

  2. roslyn: I think it’s based in that insecurity from feeling rejected by society as inferior. That’s really what it comes down to. If things were truly more egalitarian more blacks would feel the way you do, but as long as things are woefully lopsided there is going to be this open wound. The problem is distinguishing the difference between the inherit racism of black women being labeled as inferior and an individual practicing their own right of free choice in who they want to marry. The problem is how judgmental people are and how personal they take it. I’m aware of my flaws, so I work at tempering and correcting them, but for others the pain is simply to great. It feels horrible when you think you’ve been rejected for something you can’t do anything about, which was be born black in America. Even if that’s not what’s really happening. Even if the person you think is slighting you is just doing what best suits them. After all, why would anyone want someone who doesn’t want them?Still, the pain remains. The issue of black women being treated as invisible in our society remains. And the boosterism/consumerism of all things white remains. That’s the perception and that perception colors people’s view of politicians like Harold Ford, Jr.

  3. lakergrrl Avatar

    re:But my gut wants to strangle Elin WoodsHa! I thought was only one!

  4. thank you for writing this. you are exactly right, it’s a two headed fight. i know and understandthat of course i want everyone to marry the person that makes them happy, regardless of color (sex even) and it’s none of my business. but there is the other side of me that everytime i see a successful black man with a white woman wants to know why i’m not good enough. (like they even know who i am) and then the double standard because when white men date black women they are intelligent, radiant women. while black men seem to date the first white hoochie mama that isn’t scared to date a black man. also, politically, a black man with a white woman isn’t getting any white votes either. except maybe white women with fantasies.

  5. Anonymous Avatar

    Forget all that politically correct “we are the world” BS. Part of the reason I voted for Barack Obama was because he was married to Michelle. I don’t care how it sounds. I am a black woman. The idea of black woman being married to the most powerful man on the planet means something to me. And I don’t believe I could trust Obama if he were married to a white woman. Because he was simply an extraordinary candidate, he would have won my vote anyway. But I wouldn’t feel as hopeful as I do about him. But that said, I wouldn’t be as disappointed in him as I am in Harold, because Obama was raised by white women. Making his choosing Michelle to be his wife even more impressive to me. But Harold was reared in the black community. Amongst some of the best and brightest of our community. You mean to tell me he couldn’t find a sista with Michelle’s education and the bourgie social background to match his own. Now, I heard he broke up his engagement to a black woman some years ago because he has that OJ/Tiger complex. Whatever.And as for Elin Woods, yeah she pisses me off. You think Tiger would have married an uneducated glirified babysitter/failed bikini model if she were black. I highly doubt it. But anyway, I love that Obama is married to a sista and I ain’t ashamed to say it. I don’t think it makes me bitter or jealous. I’m just in touch with what’s real.

  6. Anonymous Avatar

    Read Evia’s blog regarding black men being ours exclusively. Black women need to see all men as options for dating and mating and stop waiting for Mr. Perfect Black buy to sweep us off our feet because he isn’t too concerned for us he wants a white women instead.http://www.bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/or http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/

  7. Snob:You make such a good point about your rational mind beleiving people’s personal lives and who they choose to marry has nothing to do with you. I feel the exact same way. However, I can’t help but feel a little slighted when I see a sucessful black with a white woman. I was just discussing this issue with my girlfriends. We discussed our black male classmates who graduated from law school with us. We couldn’t help but notice that all of the few black men we attened school with were either married to, or in realtionships with white women or non-black women. I have to be honest, it does hurt a little. I mean black women not being deemed as desirable in general…our beauty not being appreciated. It’s like a black man will be with any white woman, but if you see a black man with a sista she’s flawless! It hurts also because like you mentioned, things are so lopsided in this country. It seems like black women participate in this whole interracial dating phenomenom far less than any other racial group, while black men participate more. That being said, Harold Ford always rubbed me the wrong way. He’s never dated black women so it comes as no shock that he wouldn’t marry one. I wish him luck on his future bid for gov. of TN.

  8. Okay, maybe I’m crazy, but I really don’t get it. Why do we see these men’s choices of mate as a rejection of us? I mean, if I knew HF or TW personally and had dated them perhaps I can see that mindset. But they wouldn’t know me if they ran me over in a Wal-Mart parking lot. The fact that the majority culture rejects the notion of black female beauty is an issue of the majority culture. I have no way of knowing if these men feel that way or not. I don’t know them. And even if they don’t see black women as beautiful or as potential mates…and? It just seems to me that we get so wrapped up in symbolism and gestures that we miss the point. I heard a lot of people say that they liked Obama because he had a visibly black wife. I thought that was rather sad. Don’t get me wrong, I like Madame Obama very much, but if I didn’t agree with her husband’s policies I would not have voted for him. This mindset that someone else’s choices is somehow reflective on us, or is somehow a rejection of us is debilitating and must be unlearned.

  9. While I agree that a political typically cannot marry outside his or her race – I do feel like Roslyn in the sense that I really don’t care about an individual’s preference to one race or another.I could care less about gold diggers or whatever controversy scheme you think these women did to get these famous Black men. HF was KNOWN to love women of other backgrounds. Most of AAs/Blacks aren’t like my husband likes to phrase it, “full bloods” any way. I agree with anon – see ALL men for WHO they are and not “I’m Black man friendly” only. Chris Rock said it best, We’re mad at ourselves for not thinking outside the box. Can’t you just be happy that an individual has found his or her mate despite their backgrounds or race? Love and marriage is hard enough without haters.

  10. Sorry – just a little “raw”. This is an issue that sets it off in my book.I didn’t vote for Obama because of Michelle, I voted for him because of his issues.

  11. Barack would have got my vote either way as I agreed with his policies but my support was cemented by the flyness, intelligence and fabulousness of Michelle. It’s not just about her being a black woman but the kind of woman she is – someone to admire, a great role model and fashion icon to boot. What the heck, it’s SHE who makes Barack look good!

  12. Roslyn, I have to agree with Snob and others here. Maybe if I hadn’t spent my dating years in the Twin Cities I might feel differently. If you don’t know anything about where I live let me run it down for you. There are TONS of Black men married to, living with and dating White women here. (A friend of mine who was visiting from out-of-town noted that she had not seen one Black couple during her entire two week stay in the Twin Cities.) Apart from the messages I’ve received in society about the undesirability of Black women, I grew up experiencing it. I’ve watched Black men repeatedly chose White women over Black women. It doesn’t seem to matter if she is overweight, uneducated or crude, brothas are still running after her. Yet, when it comes to us they have a thousand and one rules about how we should look, think, behave, etc. I’ve witnessed three cousins of mine come up here from the South and eventually gravitate towards White women. (It happens so often with Black men who are new to this city that my friends and I now make jokes about how long it will take them.)As snob said, on one level I believe it’s their choice to be with whoever they want but I must admit another part of me is bothered by it.

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    hey at least the Ford family will finally get what they want, the next generation may actually be able to pass for white. I don’t know about the hair though, I see your buckshots Harold

  14. it is not the fact that they marry white women that is insulting, it is the ones they chooseEllin Woods was a swedish nanny of another PGA player’s children.If Tiger had married a white woman that he met at Stanford it wouldn’t be so glaringly lop-sided.

  15. Lola: I have often joked with my white female friends that they should be insulted by Elin on the grounds that Tiger didn’t even see them as “white” enough to wife. I think I’ve more than once referred to Elin as being the purest of the whitest of the white women of the world coming from the land of white women in Swede-Fin-Norse country of Europe where I don’t think you can get much whiter without become opaque. It’s obvious that as a swimsuit model she is the prototype trophy wife. When my gut relaxes I mostly just laugh at the absurdity of the match — which I think was your point. It’s like Tiger went to a store a purchased her rather than met her in some organic fashion. But then, almost all his girlfriends pre-Elin had a bit of a pre-packaged, “Fembot” feel to them.

  16. Anonymous Avatar

    If she was white people still would have a problem with him. He did NOT win because of his wifes skin color. Look at JJ and Al Sharpton they have black wives and will NEVER see the White House. It is funny how people are still making excuses for why he won. A lot of black are jealous of Barack and Michelle. Barack and Michelle don’t care about their jealousy either.People forget about white Bill CLinton winning 80% of the blk vote both terms in the 90’s with his WHITE WIFE!!!

  17. Delurker alert! While I completely understand and relate to Snob’s (and others’) perspective, as I use to think the same way – I have to agree with Roslyn. You cannot change the past or the environment in which you grow up, but as an adult, you can decide how you want your worldview to be. Being personally affronted because a black man married a non-black woman only makes sense if you feel like only black men find black women attractive. How many black women who complain about black men dating out would even check for a non-black man? Gerard Butler doesn’t count. It’s one thing if a black male politician doesn’t serve his community – by all means, withhold support. But doing so SOLELY because of who he’s married to is rather counterproductive, and a little insane. As for the media’s role in mainstream culture – black men are rarely shown in a positive light. Yet, that doesn’t keep them from marrying interracially at almost twice the rate of black women. Doesn’t make them inherently bad – to me it means that someone ain’t paying attention to what mainstream culture dictates and are living their lives how they see fit. Black women would benefit from doing the same, I think. Plus, since when did a black male politician being married to a black women guarantee integrity? I didn’t get that memo.

  18. People will just not keep it real. I two am a two-brainer when it comes to this. I was not offended by Tiger Woods because I never expected much from Mr. Cablasian himself. However; I was a little dissapointed in HFJ when I found out to whom he was married. Then my rational brained checked me other half and told me it did not matter, maybe it’s true love.

  19. Snob Fan fo' real Avatar
    Snob Fan fo’ real

    Snob,Love, love, love this post. Here’s my two cents. My twenty-five cents, rather. For all the poise, fortitude and intelligence Barack Obama displayed throughout the course of the campaign, there’s no way in hell he’d be putting his hand on the bible in a few weeks without Michelle on his arm. Had he shown up in our living rooms, on our television sets, or on the cover of our magazines clutching some Heidi Montag* look-a-like, we’d have dumped him in the same vat of Useless Negro Gumbo we tossed Clarence and Eldrick in moons ago. In crass terms, perhaps a white spouse may have helped Obama win Iowa by a larger margin (and might have put him over the top in New Hampshire, Hillary’s tears notwithstanding… ), but that presupposes Oprah giving him her valuable marketing blessing prior to the caucuses. I can’t see that happening without Michelle in the mix. She was as much a part of his ability to ‘close the deal’ with the black electorate, post Iowa, as was his party registration and position on the Iraq war. Then, there’s the content of Michelle’s life’s story. It was every bit as valuable to the campaign’s success as Barack’s speech on race. Can you imagine a white Mrs. Obama delivering an address as moving as the one the current Mrs. Obama gave at the Democratic National Convention? Or, more to the point, can you think of what Mrs. Ford might offer the nation if put in a situation somewhat like Michelle’s that night? (Would a white woman even need to have her intelligence or femminity ratified by the voting public through a nationally televised prime time speech?) [On a side note; as a male observer, at times during the race, it seemed that black and white women of a certain age were selectively disturbed by attacks on each camps’ most prominent female members. I don’t recall Hillary’s people or Gerry Ferraro ever speaking out in defense of Michelle once the GOP aimed it’s guns on her. And conversely, I can’t think of those in the ‘Oprah wing’ of the Obama camp ever making a pointed comment denouncing the sexism enveloped in the critical comments directed at Senator Clinton. Please correct me if I’m wrong on this. ] So, simply stated, no black wife, no way in hell he gets the nuke codes.And with all due respect to Roslyn, I know of no other black woman–mother, grandmothers, aunties, girlfriend, former girlfriends, cousins, co-workers, landlady’s, you name it–who have a current address in this dimension that aren’t as madly in love with Michelle Obama as they are with her husband. And her skin tone–not the color mind you, her very shade of brown, is a crucial component of their love affair. As is their desire that I not show up with an engagement ring on the finger of some Heidi Montag* look-a-like in the near future. Now personally … rationally … I have no absolutely no problem whatsoever with black men and women dating outside their race. More power to you. But on a personal level however, I’ve found the most unerringly cruel things running through my mind when I see a black woman dating a white man… so I think I have a fairly good sense of how that might feel with the gender and racial roles are reversed.Part of it, like you said, is wanting to be desired, needing to know that you’re something to be cherished by the people who–it should seem–would want to cherish you most. But it’s also my inability to rationalize how someone finds love in in the face, hands, hair and home of a person who looks so very much like the people who spent hundreds of years doing your ancestors in. I know that nationalism shouldn’t get between someone and their desires … but it does for me. And what the ‘nationalism-thing’ might be for men, the ‘desirability thing’ might be for women. Lastly, prior to mister and misses Ford jumping the broom (pun totally intended), he’d taken a position on the board of directors for Merrill Lynch. My guess is his political career is over to the extent that his name will ever appear of the ballot. He might hope for an appointment of some kind, but I can’t imagine he married that woman thinking that she’d be an asset in a minority-majority district. Or any state that still thinks Jefferson Davis was a really nice guy with lots of good ideas. [*used for demonstrating the Standard-Issue White Girl]

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    “but as an adult, you can decide how you want your worldview to be. Being personally affronted because a black man married a non-black woman only makes sense if you feel like only black men find black women attractive.”What daphne said! Expand your worldview – just because a man is “black” doesn’t mean he shares your culture. I’ve been around long enough to know I’d rather be with a similarly educated WhiteAsianHispanicNative man than a brother from the ‘hood.

  21. I’d tell you to strangle Tiger first but then Elin get the money. so do it your way but don’t forget Tiger.On the real issue Te-Nehisi Coates ran a parallel in regard to AfricanAmericans and gay marriage. Both issues revolve around the real fear that having been denied the right to marry and having our families destroyed by racism to the point of selling off family members marry someone of another race is a real slap in the face of people whom need love and proof of worth. Marriage is not for the faint of heart but in the end your own race gets it even if it isn’t the best for you at that moment in time. Ask every player whom has no more money.

  22. Is Harold Ford Jr.’s mother black? He looks more white than black. And Tiger is only a quarter black. He’s also a quarter Thai and was raised Buddhist by his mother. Why would anyone expect him to identify with the black American community? I think identity is what you choose to be. Harold is white because that’s what he identifies as. That’s why Barack Obama and Kamala Harris are black and not white or Indian, respectively. And if Tiger chooses to identify as mixed (which he is) then we should respect that.

  23. The campaign Harold Ford, Jr ran in Tennessee could just as easily been run by a white person. He does not want to be associated with blacks at all anymore and seems to be want to be thought of as “non-black”

  24. isonprize Avatar

    Race is inextricably tied to culture in these United States. So, I’m thinking if Barack Obama had married a white woman, he wouldn’t have ever been a state senator in Illinois, let alone US senator, and now President Elect. I’m thinkin’ that no-way-in-hell the majority of black women OR white men would have voted for him. I’m just sayin’…

  25. For the record, Harold Ford, Jr. is the product of black parents and considers himself to be black — they all just happen to be light complexioned. His father was a well-known politician/figure in the black community and Harold took on his father’s seat in the House of Representatives after he retired.Hence why some folks were so out of sorts. Considering his father’s relationship to the community as a civil leader advocating “black” interests for Tennesseans, many people saw Ford’s marriage to Threkeld as further evidence that he was not “dedicated to the community.” It’s debatable whether this charge is fair as you can be married to someone outside of your race and still care about black people, but many had issues with Ford that predated this and felt it proved that their concerns were true.That’s specifically why I used him for an example because people went from supporting and defending Ford (even if they hated him) out of respect for his family name to accusing him of being a traitor out right. Nothing about Ford though has really changed. Other than he got married. And because of how many feel about interracial marriage in the black community that choice was the difference in reluctant fealty and issuing “fuck yous” to the man. Many people said they wouldn’t have voted for him in his senate bid if they had known he would make this choice in spouse. It can be viewed as wildly illogical to say you wouldn’t have voted for someone based on their choice in spouse, but these reactions were about emotion, not logic and people took it personal.Also, interracial issues aren’t fully enlightened on either side of the spectrum considering a Republican anti-Ford ad campaign used fears of interracial mixing between black men and white women to attack Ford. As, I could be wrong, but nearly every black politician I know of has had to start out getting elected from a majority black district. The only case I can think of where a black person was elected out of a so-called “white” district was Republican JC Watts and he was a college football hero.And he is also married to a black woman.So in all honesty being married to a white woman would have made things difficult for any black person running for national office. What Barack did was a pretty incredible feat which is a testament to his own charisma, intelligence and skill. But no amount of that would have overcome the massive side-eye from numerous South side black voters when he ran for the Illinois state senate. But now I’m rambling because I like the sound of my own typing, so I’m going to stop.

  26. isonprize Avatar

    And somehow the standard is a wee bit different for black women married to white men. I’ve heard many a black women, say stuff like “Go on, girl. Take care of business…” upon seeing a black woman with a white man. Of course, the judgement starts in on whether he’s (stand-alone) fine, or just ‘goodlooking for-a-white-boy’ and it almost goes without saying that the man has money.I have a friend who will watch anything, ANYTHING, with Robert De Niro in it, just because he loves him black women. IMHO, it really is about your own self-esteem and being cherished. And don’t get me started on the whole dark-skin/light-skin thing. Even Whoopi Goldberg made a comment when Michelle Obama was on the view. I’m just sayin’…

  27. I agree with you, TBS…but mentally I’m thinking, why does it matter to me who Harold Ford marries? I need to get over my damn self. There is no excuse for me carrying around that nonsense.And yet…I love Michelle O. LOVE. HER.I also agree with the earlier poster who said that it would be different if it were a black woman politician married to a white man. I think there’s a stereotype that women are more thoughtful about who they date, and they don’t look for “trophies,” so if they hook up with a white guy it’s much more meaningful. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s the sense I get.

  28. isonprize: I realized at a very young age that everything about blackness was political and you could be accused of selling out over pretty much anything.I, personally, don’t get people who either encourage or discourage interracial coupling as if it’s the antidote to (or cause of) the serious case of “ISSUES” we as a people have. Things are simply more complex than that.But I do recall the ugliness that broke out over the film “Something New,” which more than one black man openly blogged about furiously, largely because of that particular “double-standard.” I could get into the psychology of black women and white men and what that symbolizes for some people (and what many of us were raised to think of it), but then I’d be hijacking the topic on my own thread.I will say, I was taught a lot about how black women were viewed and treated by white males historically. So while I’m fine with interracial dating I don’t get the “you go gurl” sentiment. I’ll cheer for love because love is a wonderful thing to root for. I’m not going to cheer just because it’s a white guy. I hope you love that white guy, because if not, that is sad. Just as you shouldn’t assume someone is a sell-out because they married a white person, talking about a white man like he’s a new Coach purse is incredibly gauche.

  29. christina: Agreed. That’s why I wrote that people need to look at what their reaction to Ford is really about and deal with that issue, not waste time attacking Ford. If you have deep seeded insecurities rooted in race (and if you’re black and you live in a majority white culture you probably do), then you need to confront and work on that. Ford is merely a distraction to a much more serious problem. And I could be wrong, but I always thought the double standard was rooted partially out of the fact that it has never been illegal for a white man to do anything to us. I know of no white man who was ever punished for having sex with or fathering children with a black woman. Granted, some of those relationships were not relationships of choice for black women historically, but it’s never been the kiss of death that black man/white women pairings were. That doesn’t mean there aren’t/weren’t hurt feelings and recriminations. (Hide your secret, out-of-wedlock black babies, white politicians! It was also really uncool during slavery times if you wanted to move your black mistress from the background to the big house. I do recall some ugliness — murder, your house getting burned down — in the few cases when that happened.) Historically black women who were willing partners in their pairings with white men were seen as sell-outs and were accused of being sexually loose. And the bitching only got worse in some case as many of the women were lighter complexioned, opening up another bag of worms, very similar to the ones being thrown at Harold Ford, Jr.(Re: You didn’t look fully black so your blackness was always in question and now you have married a white man answering that question, you whore.)Then when you consider that the Loving case which legalized interracial marriage was about a white man married to a black woman should tell that the attitude has always been a little different. Not because black women are special, but because white men are “special,” in the sense that a white man wanted to marry who he wanted to marry and the law, dominated by other white men, suddenly gave a shit.I’d argue that idea of dating white men as an act of “you go gurl” defiance is really an attack against the patriarchy within black culture. (Black men do it so I can too!) Not that you need to date a white man to do that. Our patriarchy is all kinds of confused and in some cases, borderline negligent. I’ve often said, you don’t have to bash a black man to date a white man (and the same goes for black men who date and marry white women). Black people are plenty bashed up already. We’re all pre-bashed before we even get out of the womb. There’s no need to kick innocent parties in the teeth because you’ve had one or 12 assholes in your life.But the reality is that the vast majority of people marry within their own culture. The real issue with black people is marriage period. When black people get married they tend to marry other blacks BUT fewer and fewer black people marry and when you get into areas of higher tax bracket/higher education, as a black woman, sometimes you’re lucky if you can even get felt up on a Friday night. And I say this not simply because I’m a client, but the president of the “Black Women With A Degree But Can’t Get A Date” club.And that may also explain the overwhelmingly personal and negative reaction. When you are dead set on marrying the brother of your dreams, yet find yourself trapped in these dismal statistics on black marriage you are destined to have your feelings hurt over and over again.Greater introspection is needed to toughen the psyche.And now I’ve officially hijacked my own thread. Sorry for the long responses!

  30. @TBS: Plenty of white men wound up in insane asylums or outright killed for having relationships with black women. Primarily this happened when he tried to legitimate the relationship either by marrying the woman, or by leaving her or the children money/property in his will. I guess I’ve always been more or less a pragmatist. I’m simply not concerned about men who don’t belong to me, and who would never be interested in me. Of course, of the two exemplars in question, Mr. Woods is young enough to be my child. Ford, Jr. has a reputation of being something of a hound. And though I think he’s one fine mofo, I wouldn’t touch him with anything less than a wet suit and a vat of delousing chemicals. Ewww. @isonprize, I’ve been stalked for more than eight years by a black man who has beef with the fact that I’m unapologetically married to a white man. Another black man put my child’s picture up on his blog alongside an article telling biracial children that their white parent hated them. (Unless of course, they spouted the racist nonsense he recites daily on asylum he calls a blog.)I’ve had at least one black man get up from a table where he sat with his white woman to come over and call me a sell-out. Bottom line is, it cuts both ways and then some. Pure and simple this is sexual jealousy and a pathological need to control one another. This compulsion we have to revoke people’s ‘cullud credentials’ for failure to adhere to their definition of blackness, is sick as all get out. I thank God my credentials were revoked aeons ago. I have no desire to redeem them. I avoid such fucknuttery at all costs.

  31. roslyn: Point taken. And yes, there is always a lot of behavior checking that goes on in Blackland, hence my statement about how everything in relation to “blackness” is politicized. People basically stare at you and wait for you to “get out of line,” then begin the beat down the minute you are proven to be capable of independent thought. This particular issue is frustrating in itself, as I’ve been accused of not being black enough on everything from my nerdiness to my skin color (even though I am brown, but depending on who you ask I can apparently be not brown enough) to my taste in music to the way I speak to my hair (both when it was chemically straightened and after I went natural) to not having enough dark skinned male actors on “The Wall of Sexy.” It will drive you crazy if you let it and your tales of people’s psycho reaction to your personal life does not surprise me. As I recall, the reaction by the opposite sex to Ford’s marriage and the film “Something New” was about the same, IMO. But I don’t know how to cure this particular ailment other than to encourage people to practice some healthy self-awareness and come to the realization that everything is not about them.But that is easier said than done.

  32. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: If Barack Obama was married to Snowflake, he wouldn’t have even gotten to the U.S. Senate, let alone President of the United States. From the South Side of Chicago?I don’t think so. As for The Dark Sith,I have no respect for him, because he hid Snowflake in the basement like the Crazy Uncle. If he was so ‘ in love’, he would have had him on his arm during the campaign. But, he thought he was slicker than grease…he’d win the Senate seat …THEN reveal her. That, and he lied on his Grandmama. If he wants elective office again, he best make it from somewhere other than Tennessee.

  33. Never wanted to strangle Elin Woods. Wanted to kick Tiger’s ass.The Nanny?The fucking Nanny? He could have at least married the White girl who was going to law school, but he married the fucking NANNY. THAT is what’s insulting. That’s what Black men do over and over again.All she gotta be is WHITE. Now, I don’t know ALL the White men of substance who date inter-racially..But, the ones I have seen,let’s just say this..If they are a White man of ‘substance’….Be her Black, Asian OR Latino…On paper?She’s got her shit together. He ain’t taking the nanny or secretary home to HIS mother.

  34. Okay, y’all have to forgive me for asking, but what is the problem with Tiger Woods marrying a nanny? If I’m not mistaken, the man is a golfer. He’s not a Nobel laureate, a member of Congress or even a rocket scientist. The man hits a ball with a stick for a living. It requires talent and dedication, I’m sure, but he’s still a golfer. The fact that he’s very wealthy doesn’t mitigate that fact. It seems to be very common for well-to-do men to marry less affluent women. JFK, Jr. married a clerk in a Calvin Klein store. When the Donald met Ivana she was a skier, and most famously at all, Prince Charles married, a nanny. We’ve got to get over this mindset that wealth and/or fame necessarily equals accomplishment or even intellect. These sports figures and celebrities would most likely be cashiers or nannies themselves were they not skilled in a sport or happen to find fame and fortune in the field of entertainment.

  35. For all the poise, fortitude and intelligence Barack Obama displayed throughout the course of the campaign, there’s no way in hell he’d be putting his hand on the bible in a few weeks without Michelle on his arm. Had he shown up in our living rooms, on our television sets, or on the cover of our magazines clutching some Heidi Montag* look-a-like, we’d have dumped him in the same vat of Useless Negro Gumbo we tossed Clarence and Eldrick in moons ago. LOLLove your way of putting it, and of course, ICAM.

  36. @roslynholcomb:That’s a good point. Tiger went to Stanford, so you’d hope that he has something going on upstairs, but maybe not.Maybe Tiger marrying “the nanny” is just proof it’s real love. As illogical as I know my feelings are about this subject, I feel extra squicky when children are involved. We’re not inside their marriage, and that nanny is the mother of a child I hope is loved and cherished. And that’s all I need to know about that.My only wish is that men of other races would embrace black women the way some black men are quite comfortable dating outside their race. This conversation usually ends up with someone saying “black women, you need to not be waiting around for black men to love and date and marry!” Which is all fine and good, but it’s not like white men are lining up around the block to date black women. There are some who do, definitely. But by and large, looking at marriage statistics, people pretty much keep to their own race when it comes to love matches. The only groups that “outmarry” to any extent are black men and Asian women.

  37. Soapbubble Avatar
    Soapbubble

    Snob, you’ve summed up the feelings I get when I see black men with white women. I’ve been in the USAF for more than 18 years and that seems to be all you see. Black men will simply want to kick it with Black women but when it comes time to get married, it’s the white women that white men don’t want. But you know that slightly sick feeling you get when you see a black man with a white woman, I’ve seen that look on white women when they see white men with Asian women. I know it’s bad to feel good about it but I can’t help but feel a little bit of vindication when I see that look on white women’s face that asks “WTH??? Am I not feminine enough?” Back in the day after graduating from basic training, I had a roommate in tech school who happened to be a white woman who was in the process of being disowned by her father because she planned to marry a black man. I was young and tried to keep an open mind about it. One night while watching the Miss America pageant, a black woman won and was crowned by the previous year’s winner who was also black (I think her name was Debbie Turner but I’m not sure) Well my roommate got ANGRY about that and asked if crowning black women as Miss America were some kind of trend. Needless to say I was shocked. She left the room and it was the end of our school cycle so we went our serparate ways but it’s never left me that white women think they are better than black women and it hurts to know that a lot of black men seem to think so too. 😦 Another thing I’ve observed though is that a lot of the black men married to white women get a trapped look about them after a few babies put a strain on the marriage. I think it occurs to them that white women have as many if not more flaws than black women.

  38. Just passing through and read some of the comments.I think each has a valid point. It would have been a tad harder for me to vote for Barack if he had married white. Yes, we all want to feel valued and desired. If you pay attention to any of the media forms, especially commercials, we are the MOST under valued, undesired people on the planet. This distinction seems to especially apply to the African American woman. It seems we are being disappeared from the public eye. Count how many times you see us on TV, (not counting our gyrating body parts in music videos).What are we going to do about it? Rant and raving about black men with white women isn’t going to make a difference. If it could, it would have by now. We’ve been ranting for at least 70 years now.We’ve stayed loyal to black men all this time, maybe we should have the same attitude that they have. What’s it to you who I date?If a GOOD man from another ethnic group, seriously approached us for a relationship or casually approached us for a date, just to spend some time in the pleasure of our company, what would our reaction be? Would we kick him to the curb because he wasn’t black, or would we consider the content of his character, drop this unappreciated, unasked for loyalty to black men, and check him out? Instead of worrying about narrowing the black man’s field of opportunity, are we willing to broaden our own?Sometimes I think we get upset with the inter-racial couples because we believe there are not enough GOOD men to go around. If we confine our scope to just black men, there aren’t enough. But, there are MILLIONS of GOOD men on the planet. Let’s give ourselves the right to broaden OUR vision; men have always exercised that right for themselves.What’s good for the goose is good for the gander?

  39. I’m with TBS on this one with having 2 minds on the issue. I’m married to an Asian but I still stand in solidarity with my sisters still in the struggle at the bottom of the dating totem pole. The statistics regarding interracial marriage wouldn’t be so skewed if only love factored into interracial pairings, but that’s not the case. Black women are the least desirable in the dating market and I agree with previous posters that when you see a black woman married to someone outside of her race she has her shit together. I remember hearing inthe beauty shop growing up not to ” bring home trash from another race”. The women there didn’t have a problem with their sons marrying white, just please make sure that she has more to contribute than just her white skin. I don’t know how many times men would make contact with me on match.com and I check their race preferences and they’d have every race checked except for black. It’s like they made an exception for me or something, how gracious of them *eyeroll*. I’m almost 30 now but I’ve been aware of the scary statistics regarding educated black women and marriage since my early 20’s. I’ve also seen too many successful attractive black women get left behind. I made it my second job to get myself out there and find a good man of any race to marry. I wasn’t going to wait on serendipidity to send me someone. It’s like shopping at TJ Maxx, but eventually I found him. I think that black women need to take their business where it’s appreciated. Black men are great but they’re just one of the options to choose from. We have to look out for our own happiness.

  40. I don’t have an “issue” with interracial dating, but it always seems suspect, that the majority of successful black men who do marry white women it is always the same type…(blond, thin etc..)But then what they eat won’t make me poo.

  41. I as a black woman have always felt good about myself and when you feel good you usually like to at least see it occasionally reflected back and many times in a black woman’s perspective her perception can get skewed, and it is no wonder, most images boast white women as THE specific type of beauty, it is everywhere the grocery magazines, t.v., and just being out and about in the community. Just think of it Black women have been in this country for a long time and it seems like they are practically invisible, it is really quite absurd. A woman is a woman by any respect but in my opinion instead of black women being revered and looked at as a symbol of femininity, motherhood and strength she is looked at as a diseased-ridden baby mama with no education. Black women have many issues plaguing them, number one with HIV, and a high rate of single parenthood and throw on top the inability to marry… anyone. We have strong women that inspite of their odds are able to obtain college educations and careers… but where are the men standing in line for them? Has anyone noticed when a BW gets her degree she many times continues her single role. When a BM gets his degree he marries a white woman which leads us back to that woeful saying, where are the black men? I truly believe that the white women in this country are valued more. Everytime a white woman disappears or is a victim of foulplay she is showcased on endlessly on every network. But if a black woman has met foulplay do we hear about her? No. Most people do not expect much from black women and always equate them to being ugly using their natural features as excuses.I feel that black men have a lot going on but black women also and it makes one wonder why won’t both of these groups help each other? The history of why black men and women not connecting to each other is a long and complicated one with much blame on both sides stemming from personal irresponsibility and division this seems to be a subject in that both groups are on the road to losing.We can package it up and call it love, he has the right to love whomever and so does she but there is an issue here whether anyone wants to recognize it or not. We can talk about how much we could care less about what the other does but the facts pertaining to this issue still remain. Is the black man subliminally buying into their dream and his pick of wife included? To tell you the truth I do not think white people/media thought about that. Well maybe they did because you rarely see a black male leading man paired with a black woman in the movies, (uh… duh subliminal) in fact you will never see that. Think about it another case in point when Sarah Palin came on the scene the first and foremost thing they talked about was how pretty she was and they assumed that she was smart to boot. Michelle Obama on the other hand having been on the campaign trail for a couple years and what is said? She is not an example of a beautiful woman?! So we do not see her as beautiful and she represents what a lot of us look like. The woman rocks she’s tall, statuesque has great choices of hairstyles, her personal style period. She is smart and she is who she is and can back it up! And dammit loves her man! That just added to Obama’s appeal! Yes, he can do the job but she adds to him tremendously. So… what is the problem with a Black King being with a Black Queen? A lot of this is the mind set. You know I love America but I liken it sometimes a to kind of unwanted roller coaster ride.

  42. namaste and ZooPath – thank you so much. I really appreciate what yall said.

  43. “Is the black man subliminally buying into their dream and his pick of wife included?”And? What if they are? Unless we have some type of magic decoder ring to deprogram them what can we do about it? Not a damned thing. We can only control our own behavior. People choose what they choose because that’s what they want. Now, we can sit at home on Saturday nights picking lint out our navels, or we can get on with it. Either way, these men are with who they want to be with, and they don’t give a damn about how we feel about it. So, if they don’t care about how we feel, why are we weeping and moaning and gnashing our teeth over them?

  44. roslynholcomb – though i understand and respect your statement. the reason why we care is because is because our men buying into these messages has the ability to lead to the destruction of the black family as a whole. there are a lot of single mothers, but there are also a lot of black men standing by their families and raising their children. and yes, we should also be concerned with the human family as a whole, but if we don’t love and heal ourselves, how can we think to spread into that greater field. if black men and women can’t come together then what little bit of a history we have managed to claim goes to waste.

  45. @Naila, here’s the thing. They’re not OUR MEN. We are not THEIR WOMEN. They don’t belong to us, and we don’t belong to them. No group of human beings belong to another group of human beings. I’m not talking about healing the greater field. I’m talking about healing ourselves, one person at a time. As long as we walk around with this mindset that we’re losing something that belongs to us, or that someone is taking it away we’ll continue to feel bereft and rejected. We’ve been feeling this way for a long time and from where I sit it hasn’t benefitted us at all. I don’t believe in continuing to do stuff that doesn’t help. And this definitely isn’t helping. People are going to be with whom they want to be with. Full stop period. Now, you can choose to make that be about you, or you can choose to get on with it, because when it’s all said and done, IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU. Are there black men whose mating/dating choices are a rejection of black women? I’m sure there are. And? Does marinating in those thoughts benefit you? Not from where I sit. So what difference does it make? That’s between him and whatever woman he chooses to be with. Keep it moving.

  46. I’m a black woman. The general black female population ends up looking like the business end of a donkey with diarrhea when they go on DEFCON five alert about black men who marry non-black women. All those neurons firing thinking about the dating habits of somebody you know from the media and have never personally met. And making ASSumptions about the dating habits and preferences of these men is an absurd exercise. All of that energy that could be used focusing on yourself. How pitiful. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and make sure your thing is together.

  47. What Daphne said.I have a good friend who was dating a white man and she went off on a black man we know who was dating a white woman. I said “hello, do you see who you are dating?” Her reply? “It’s different.” Uhm okay. As a dark black woman with a natural no brothers were checking for me when I lived in L.A. for ten years. Zero. I never dated interracially until I moved to the West Coast. If I wasn’t open to it I wouldn’t have dated, period. None of the men where scrubs either. I understand why some sisters get upset when they see men like Tiger or HR with white women. Some do take it personally. I’m older now and really I don’t care. In my 20s working on the Hill, there was not a single black congressman married to a woman who looked like me or Michelle Obama. So even if the brothers would date a sister I wasn’t an option anyway.Unless I know the brother who is to say he only dated white women? Maybe he did fall in love with that particular person. Now if someone is like Quincy Jones and NEVER dates within his race, that level of self hatered I don’t understand. I moved to Italy this year. Most of the interracial relationships I see here are Italian men with women of color (black or hispanic). Rarely do I see a black man with an Italian woman.

  48. Anonymous Avatar

    @roslynHere is the thing… our men actually want to be our men… when floating in troubled waters anyway. Where did HFJ go when the blonde playboy bunny ad came out? He was running to every black church open that next Sunday looking for prayer and support. Don’t count on us to lift you up when times are tough but then feel like we can not be life partners, or give you beautiful brown children, or represent you well on your shoulder when the cameras are flashing. To me, that is a portrait of self hatred and we, as black women, are entitled to feel a little annoyed when this picture is playing out over and over again in our lives. I think your choice to marry a non black man was a great choice for you just like my marrying a biracial man (black/white) was a great choice for me. A life choice this important should not boil down to political moves, what the kids might look like, or what doors are being opened up. What was most important for me was that he was a proud biracial man who is always proud to have this brown woman on his shoulder….. ALWAYS!

  49. As black people and black women, in particular, we need to loose this negative, anti-interracial vibe. It’s completely counter to the color blind society the MLK and too many others preached and died for. Who Harold Ford or Tiger Woods marries is no one business but theirs. It’s their life.And speaking as a black woman (married to a black man), the fact is that we must see each other as all of God’s children or you don’t. You can’t sing unity one day and hate the next. It doesn’t work that way. The Bible told me so.Barack Obama is the embodiment of a proud black man of mixed heritage. He should not have his heritage knocked by anyone, but his background should be celebrated. As people of all races, we have more in common than we have differences. We must loose the hate because the reality is that mixed race dating and marriage will continue despite the bitching by a black or white person.Does Barack’s mother deserve this hate? Michelle’s brother is married to a white woman. Should we hate on her too.Wake up black community. It’s time to loose the hate.

  50. One more thing. Barack joked recently about being a mutt. The fact is that the African-American community, Hispanic Amerian community and I would argue the Jewish community (BASICALLY EVERYONE) are all mixed up. No one is pure. We are all mutts! And the orgin of all people is from East Africa. The DNA science has proved this and the Bible confirms this fact. Adam and Eve were black people and everyone else sprung from them. Apparently, God likes diversity. Let’s see the big picture and stop the hate.

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