Are Black Women Being Punished For Being Successful?

Elayne Fluker recently penned a column for Essence.com opining if black women are being unfairly targeted and punished for daring to be successful.

Study after freakin’ study—from CNN, to MSNBC, to ESSENCE—has told us, warned us, that as educated, accomplished Black women, we run the risk of being “punished.” That we won’t be able to find a suitable mate, nor get married, nor have children. Ever! I think I speak for us all when I say: WTF?

… Now that I’m “ready” (to settle down), I pay more attention to what “they” say about my options, and I’m reeling from the cruel statistics. “45% of Black women in America have never married; compared with 23% of White women,” they say. The rate of childlessness among highly educated Black women born between 1961 and 1970 is 38% they say. “African-American females, even with lots of education, do not fetch as much ‘value’ in the marriage market,” they say. “Black women outnumber Black men almost 2 to 1 in higher education,” they say. “The disparity is important because Americans have a strong tendency to marry those with equal levels of education.”

Well, damn. How does an SSBF debunk the stats and find a man during this recession of romance?

More after the jump.

Fluker covers the usual basics — Date online! Date outside your race! Go Lesbian (she writes jokingly)! But isn’t this an odd mixed message we’re giving to young black women? Your success precludes your loneliness, or is there another factor at play? Is it really the fault of women who choose to advance their education and careers that they can’t find mates, or is there a bigger problem? Like, for instance, when my father was in college he thought it was odd that his friends were so excited that the male-to-female ratio at his alma mater, Prairie View A&M, was so skewed heavily female. While it boded great for the dating chances of him and his friends, he didn’t think it was exactly a good thing that there were four women for every man on campus.

And that was in the 1960s.

Now the ratio at black colleges and universities are even worse. Aren’t we really asking the WRONG question here. It’s not “black woman, you are too successful,” shouldn’t it be, “Hey black man, why aren’t you successful enough?” We’re ARE you? Why aren’t you at Howard University matching the number of sisters there? Why aren’t you at Prairie View? Why aren’t you at Grambling? Why aren’t at state schools? Why aren’t you at the work place? What is going on with black men where there is such a huge disparity? Are we not reaching black men soon enough? Are boys getting left behind? What’s causing them to be left behind? What is causing this gap?

No one should be punished for being successful. That’s ridiculous. It’s the American way to push yourself to do better and go farther than you possibly can. Why aren’t more black men meeting this same challenge? Why don’t they have the same motivation? What is causing this failure? It seems to me that what we really have is a black male failure problem, not a black female success problem. Isn’t some of this the fault of the collapse of the well-paying blue collar job — the former gateway to the Middle Class — that many men used as a springboard to be able to start families and buy homes?

Instead of asking women to step down, shouldn’t we be expecting more of ourselves and asking our brothers to step up? Shouldn’t we be trying to figure out what went wrong?

daniellebelton

66 responses to “Are Black Women Being Punished For Being Successful?”

  1. RainaHavock Avatar
    RainaHavock

    Seriously I said it to myself if I see another article like that I’m going to scream! I’m in school now so this really pisses me off when they do this because it’s like they’re saying" "Yeah you worked your butt of for your degree but here a lifetime of loneliness and having no children as consultation prize". SMH Seriously I would like to know what is going on with our black boys though part of me knows.

    Reply
  2. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    The Black Community had been trying to figure these questions out and asking Black Men to step up for the last 35 years. This idea that Black Women should start dating outside the race or dating down the education adn economic ladder, etc., is way more recent than that, and it’s not even really a widespread, or pervasive call, the way I see it.

    Reply
  3. divaliscious11 Avatar
    divaliscious11

    I don’t think its that simple. There are so many parts of or to the reasons. I am glad not to be single, but there are definately some perks I miss about it – LOL. but seriously, I think if we want the balance to return, we moms of boys have to instill in our boys the value of an education and not let them fall victim to the ‘school ain’t cool’ peer pressure that is unfortunately ravishing some our communities. A lot of the weight here also falls on the dads, especially the ones who aren’t around. No need to rehash that drama, but while i as a woman can raise my son to be a good person, I can’t teach him to be a man, and some of being able to resist the peer pressure is having your primary role model in your home. I don’t think my 7 year old even understands that school could end after high school, because we have never mentioned that possibiity to him. What I think isn’t often addressed is how gender bias pushes women to obtain more education to get just as far as my male peers, which creates a lop-sided impression with regard to education…

    Reply
  4. RainaHavock Avatar
    RainaHavock

    @divaliscious11: Cosign. I completely agree!

    Reply
  5. Monie Avatar
    Monie

    I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to compare present day Black and White women. If the comparison is to be fair I think the caparison should be of White women in the late 70’s and 80’s and Black women today. Black women I believe are simply going through a sort of success growing pains period that I’m pretty sure White women 30 years ago went through as more options opened up for them.Black women have more options now than we’ve ever had in history so doesn’t it make sense that our marriage patterns would change? Also what about the Black women who don’t want to get married or who are lesbians and legally can’t get married. I just think we need to have perspective rather than letting the media make us feel we should be in a state of emergency.Also about those statistics; "45% of Black women in America have never married;…" But doesn’t that mean the 55% of Black women have married."The rate of childlessness among highly educated Black women born between 1961 and 1970 is 38% …" And doesn’t that mean that 62% of Black women have had children.

    Reply
  6. cdf Avatar
    cdf

    ROFL!!!This topic was over at the Root and I’ll say here what I said there: if I, as a black male could find a black, educated female to date/marry, then I have no problems with this article. Otherwise, WTF?!

    Reply
  7. RainaHavock Avatar
    RainaHavock

    @Monie: You make excellent points as well. I was saying this a while back. Not every black woman wants to get married and not every black woman is straight. It’s ridiculous and I’m sick of it!

    Reply
  8. snobfanforeal Avatar
    snobfanforeal

    This again?I have to say that, as a man, I’m officially tired of these essays. Probably not to the same degree that my female counterparts are, but tired enough.Isn’t it possible that black women, like an increasing number of educated, gainfully employed professionals of all races, simply don’t want to be married in the same numbers as their mothers and grandmothers? A monumental shift has transformed the options and opportunities that women of all races, and black women especially, might entertain when it comes to life planning in the last fifty years. How likely is it that the individual who seeks a doctorate degree in anything is really stressing about getting hitched? My guess is they’d rather have their prospectus approved, or their thesis published before walking down the chapel steps with a dude in tow.The times have changed. The narrative to essays on the lives of black women should change along with them.

    Reply
  9. Symphony Avatar
    Symphony

    "Now that I’m "ready" (to settle down), I pay more attention to what "they" say about my options, and I’m reeling from the cruel statistics. "And how much of this anxiety will she carry with her and allow to get in the way now that she’s ready? Just because a woman is educated and independent doesn’t make her a good woman deserving of a good man. Those things make you financially desirable (maybe) , not emotionally and mentally desirable for a strong relationship and/or marriage. Many people (men and women) know the theory of good relationships but we’re not so good at applying it. I’m very happy single. I’m stubborn, I like things my way, I don’t want to answer to anyone, I don’t want to be questioned and I love to come and go as I please without regard to anyone else. If I want to pick up and move to Japan or Paris I can do it and not think about anyone else’s career. But I am sympathetic to the women who want marriage and family. And I hope you sisters find what you’re looking for.

    Reply
  10. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    The problems is that black American culture discourages males from doing well in school and black women definitely have aided in the problem. Usually, to be the most popular guy in high school, a black male has to get in trouble a lot and make bad grades. Black girls aren’t under that same pressure. Those are the types of males that black females were attracted to mostly. High school and middle school are critical years that a person needs to start deciding who they are going to be the rest of their lives. One doesn’t screw-up all that time and then later decide that they want to be a journalist or engineer. So now that the black women are older and in professions, mostly what is left are those guys in high school who they helped encourage to be losers and to not further their education. True, the women eventually learn that they have erred, but now it’s too late. I’m not saying that it’s totally the fault of women, but you all have played a major part in making it this way. One of my best friends in high school, who is a lawyer now, is black and he was the valedictorian of our high school, which was majority white but about 30% black. He can testify that he got more attention from white girls than he did from the black ones. I myself am college educated and articulate and have pursued many black women before I got married, many of them rejected me for whatever reason. I didn’t fault them for it, they are free to choose who they want for whatever reason. They’re not supposed to automatically want me just because I graduated from college and law school. But I think black women are exaggerating when they pretend as if they have never had a chance to be with a college-educated black man. Women reject men for all kinds of reasons. Ladies I’m sure you’re thinking "but HULawyer, I wasn’t one of those girls who liked thugs and future losers in high school!" Good for you; however, a lot of your fellow sisters liked them and it fucked it up for the rest of you. Similar to air pollution, you may take public transportation but you still have to breath the air from the cars of others who choose to drive. To reiterate, women are not totally at fault but they have greatly contributed to a culture that tells black makes that they need to be thugging rappers so that they can be the coolest and get the most women–which includes professional/college-bound women who are also attracted to them.

    Reply
  11. B Avatar
    B

    Snobfanforeal,Yes, it is possible but not likely. Women of all groups generally will not stop wanting marriage and family just because they have a thesis to complete, patients/clients to attend to, etc. Similarly educated non-black women don’t seem to have this marriage problem. Furthurmore, our "communities" suffer when we do not have stable, legitimate families. I think our incarceration, poverty, drug, crime rates are related to the lack of families (complete with FAMILY MEN who protect and provide) in our communities. Women cannot do it all… Contrary to the "strong, black woman" myth leads others and even some BW themselves to believe. The fact that these articles continue to be written and then blogged about makes me think that BW do care very much about this. Why churn out articles if there’s no audience?

    Reply
  12. B Avatar
    B

    I was waiting for the "Black Women want thugs" stereotype to show up. Thanks, HULawyer! 🙂

    Reply
  13. conni3 Avatar
    conni3

    As a female in her early 20’s who’s a recent college graduate with a good career, these studies are so disheartening. Usually, I couldn’t care less about ‘their’ studies, and what ‘they’ say, but as I date more I’m starting to see some truth in all of it. Nevertheless, I’ve worked hard, and will continue to work hard.

    Reply
  14. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    To: BIt’s not a stereotype, it’s a reality that I have witnessed personally. I had a friend in law school who actually told me she like a guy with a little "thug" in him. Whatever that meant. I don’t believe she actually wanted a person with a criminal record. Another lady I know described to me how her dad worked hard at 2 jobs to support his family. She used the word "thuggin" to describe something positive her dad was doing to help the family survive. There’s something wrong about our culture when we have to use the word "thug" to describe something positive.

    Reply
  15. conni3 Avatar
    conni3

    I’m so tired of hearing about the educated black man and how black women don’t want him. I don’t know if this is a new trend, but black males are getting treated better than black females on campuses now. Since there are less high achieving black males, they were given more privileges and chances to do better, i.e, able to turn papers in late or not at all, special attention from faculty members, thus allowing them to do better. This in turn gives them huge ego’s and some sense of entitlement, simply put they’re jerks. I don’t care if you are educated, if you’re not down to earth and humble, I don’t want you.

    Reply
  16. Ms. Smart Avatar
    Ms. Smart

    Pride isn’t tied to being able to be the head of a household and support a family anymore. Young boys often define success as having "money, cars, clothes, and hoes". Previous generations of Black men viewed being good husbands, fathers, and providers as integral parts of success. I see this demonstrated in the difference in conversations I have with single white men over 30 and Black men over 30. Single white men (the ones I know) feel like failures because they don’t have families or even wives yet. Black men, not so much. But hey, that’s just my limited experience in the DC metro area.

    Reply
  17. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @conni3"able to turn papers in late or not at all, special attention from faculty members, thus allowing them to do better."Lol, what? Where? When? Who? How? Stop making stuff up. Please.

    Reply
  18. swiv Avatar
    swiv

    more for me?

    Reply
  19. Court Avatar
    Court

    This issue is a dead horse to me.First of all, I find the suggestion that there is something wrong with dating "below" your education level, very snobbish. And not in a good way. My godmother and my stepmother are both well-educated, corporate ladder climbers who married non-college educated, blue-collar job men, and they have the strongest, happiest marriages I’ve ever seen. No, it’s not right that black men aren’t filling the college ranks to the degree that black women are, but so it goes. And if you decide that your status affords you a certain type of man of equal status, then feel free to hunt for that unicorn sister. I’ll be the one dating the cute bus driver :)I also agree that statistics are superficial and don’t explain away certain truths: homosexuality and personal choice for a couple.

    Reply
  20. conni3 Avatar
    conni3

    @ Scipio AfricanusI’ve seen it, I heard about it. I see nothing wrong with giving extra attention when needed. Don’t get me wrong, I think mentoring programs for black men in college is great, but I don’t think they should be getting unfair advantages. But then again, other races have been getting advantages for years.

    Reply
  21. DNLee Avatar
    DNLee

    Wow! I was just having a conversation with myself about this very topic. It hate how this entire crapfest is framed. Why is this all about black women? Why is our problem? See the recent artcile at TheRoot – A memo to black women to get over ourselves http://www.theroot.com/views/memo-black-women-get-real – it really tore me a new one.1st: Why is marriage the end game? for the whole society. Yeah I get it IF you want to be married right now AND you’re not close, then yeah. It’s a crisis…an individual crisis. Not a population level crisis. Why is there an obsession to marry all of us young, presumably nubile, black women? What’s the social consequences of all of these unmarried women. It harkens to social control of sexuality and behavior once common in Imperial Europe – ship a boatload of wenches to Australia, the Caribbean, even America (and the old West) to marry off the men folk so they can settle down and create tax-paying societies to the crown?Why does it matter so much – to the media, CNN, MSNBC if we get married or not? Or for that matter – any other group of women?2nd: Why is this a crisis for women? Assuming that it is a cry for the black community as a whole (and I don’t buy that it is), shouldn’t the question be "Why is there a decline in stable marriages among younger generations of black people?" This would be a problem for women AND men, because they would need to couple up. If I were from another planet and caught wiff of this controversy I would draw the conclusion that our operational sex ratio is all jacked up (I’m a scientist, I had to go there)a) the number of adult/reproductive age black women outnumber male counterparts which can be due to birth rate – more girls born than boys, childhood/young adult death rates – more girls survive, more boys die in childhood – a Pharoah/Moses phenomenonb) surely almost ALL of the available young men must ALREADY be married or engaged and all of the whinny black women are the left overs — again this is a matter of sex ratio.But the fact is, no one, NO ONE has even explored the prima facie argument – is there a very skewed operational sex ratio is the African-American community? It can certainly seem so, but who knows.3rd: Would this be a news item if it were about too many Black Men being single? I don’t know. But at least history provides us with a way to resolve the too many single men crisis — mail order brides.Sheesh

    Reply
  22. polticallyincorrect Avatar
    polticallyincorrect

    Oh please there are plenty low achieving sistas who don’t find husbands. The ghettos are filled with them, and the jails are filled with their children.

    Reply
  23. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @Conni3, I’ve never heard of anything like what you’re talking about. At my school, and at my friend’s schools, the guys were right there in the academic trenches fighting the good fight alongside the women, and no one got cut any breaks by professors because of gender. Joint study groups with guys and girls, folks agonizing over getting problems sets, labs, projects, and papers done, etc. Now admittedly, there *were* more girls than guys, but it wasn’t enough a difference that you could feel it (52% to 48% still feels like 50/50, most times.) I seriously doubt what you’re talking about is widespread or even true in the first place.

    Reply
  24. Kiya Biya Avatar
    Kiya Biya

    I have a notion as to why this continues, day in and day out, generations after generations. From a psychological point of view as well as sociological view, when women, especially minorities raise their children, there is a bit of a difference between raising your daughter and raising your son. Mothers and sons go together like PBJ, you do no wrong, he’s mama’s little boy and their is much favoritism towards him as opposed to raising your daughter. Your harder on your daughter invest much more into her education. As far as punishment goes, daughters seem to get the worst of it, as opposed to their male siblings. To make matters worse, minority women are the same with their male counterpart. They allow bad behavior to continuously rule their relationship with a spouse, a boyfriend, a baby’s father, simply because they want to make it work and have an undeserving person stay with them. What kind of fuckery is that??? Settling for less than you deserve, I don’t think so???Boys, in particular, see their mothers going back and forth with a father or a male figure and see a weak woman who can’t just move on past it and find something better.It’s a cycle of women sabotaging themselves.We stay because we want to be the "one", we put up with being unhappy, because we feel that we won’t get any better, and we continue to give men a pass on poor behavior.It’s a reality check for women to wake up and realize that Black men are not the end all be all of everything. Your job in life should simply to be happy without having to sacrifice all that you worked for or what was instilled in your good upbringing.On another note, not every women wants to be married.

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  25. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @Kiya Biya"Settling for less than you deserve,"Aren’t we talking about how the exact opposite of that quote is what is happening, and that there are a large number of women who find themselves single as a result of it?These articles don’t talk about the fact that there’s alot of non-marriage for both black men *and* black women. They frame it as though all or most of the straight, non-incarcerated scarfaces men are taken. That’s just far from true.

    Reply
  26. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @Kiya Biya"Settling for less than you deserve,"Aren’t we talking about how the exact opposite of that quote is what is happening, and that there are a large number of women who find themselves single as a result of it?These articles don’t talk about the fact that there’s alot of non-marriage for both black men *and* black women. They frame it as though all or most of the straight, non-incarcerated scarfaces men are taken. That’s just far from true.

    Reply
  27. conni3 Avatar
    conni3

    @Scipio AfricanusI’m not here to argue with you. By no means does it mean all faculty at all schools. Did I saw all black males get ahead this way, no. I know what I’ve seen and heard, and it happens, trust. So you’ve never heard of big time athletes getting special passes in class? It’s the same concept sweetheart. You’re not in the room when the professor is grading papers, are you?

    Reply
  28. Danielle Belton Avatar
    Danielle Belton

    I find it interesting that in the question I posed (why the disparity), some of the responses went right back to black women. That some women want thugs, or that some women are overly forgiving of bad behavior in men. Maybe it’s just me, but I refuse to believe that the key to all bad behavior by some black men falls back on women. After all, when black men do well, it’s not like black women get credit or that we demand credit. When a black man does well, he did well on his own merits, but when he does poorly, suddenly it’s something the black woman did or didn’t do? If black women were so powerful over the end results of how black men turn out wouldn’t all black men be some version of a Babyface/Keith Sweat song? In fact, I think it’s rather insulting to black men to assume that they are so simple and malleable that they can’t do anything unless a woman has laid the proper groundwork. I think there has been a systematic failure on all fronts for there to be such a disparity and I think it’s much more complicated than mother’s love their sons and raise their daughters. Where are the fathers, grandfathers, brothers, mentors, ministers and other men of stature in these boys’ lives? Where are the blue collar jobs that used to be there for a young black man when he finished high school in case college wasn’t an alternative? And traditionally, it is the man who proposes marriage so WHY are so many men uninterested in getting married? Again, I’d love to hear an opinion that goes a little further than "If black women would only …" because I feel like all we ever talk about is what black women can or can’t do in regards to black men. What do black men need to do for themselves? I mean, isn’t this what The Million Man March was about? Our community is so quick to go back to what women should or shouldn’t be doing, but we aren’t avoiding addressing the issue with black men?

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  29. conni3 Avatar
    conni3

    @DanielleThank you!

    Reply
  30. MSUEngineer Avatar
    MSUEngineer

    @HULawyer you have a valid point, its not fair to caricaturize it as a ‘"Black Women want thugs" stereotype’.I think there are many faces of this issue, and many issues that have to be delt with. Young black women many times are attracted to exciting guys in high school and college I don’t blame them thats part of being young. In my experience these men weren’t in my AP Calculus class or in the Engineering Program at school, but they did get a lot of trim.The blame might have to be put on society as a whole for promoting a standard of manhood that is not really sustainable. I won’t front I was raised by rap videos and grew up in the hood, when I was young I wanted to be that dude but, later in life I’m glad I made the choices I did.

    Reply
  31. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    Conni3,Big time athletes bring revenue and prestige into schools. That’s why they get passes (not that it’s okay.) What do a handful or ragtag Afri-canzzz (a McGriddle on me for whoever can guess what movie that quote came from) confer onto your typical school? Rien. And TA’s usually gared papers in most classes, anyway. The TA’s don’t know who is who because they usually don’t sit in the classes while the professor lectures. But even still, I still don’t buy what you’re selling – that black men are coddled by school establishments in terms of grading. That’s malarky.

    Reply
  32. Symphony Avatar
    Symphony

    Who are these black women who want to be married but aren’t? How many of them are out there really? Did they take out the women who one day want to marry but aren’t interested now? The ones who don’t want to marry? The ones who can’t get married (lesbians)? Because they can take some of us out of the equation and then the rest of you can stop stressing because the number won’t be as high as reported.We talk all the time about how men aren’t in the home and when its time to look at who raised these damaged fools (men and women) again it goes back to the men who aren’t in the home (as it should) but with hardly a peep out of the people who did raise them (the women). Yes, women have something to do with why men are the way they are. They were raised by morons, they are surrounded by morons who let them sponge off of them just out of sheer desperation for male companionship. And yes, there are male morons too, plenty of them. Men take no responsibility because they don’t have to; they were never required to. And they sure as hell don’t want to. It has been said already that too many males equate their manhood with material possession and how many women they can have sex with. Many have probably never grown up in that two-parent household, monogamy has never been required for them to get a woman and they feel why should they stop playing and start working (in relationships). And how are they going to miss what they never had as a child (a structured home environment)?I’m sorry but I’m failing to see the missing a-ha cause everyone seems to be looking for with certain topics such as this one. Also, people need to be careful with these sweeping generalizations about black men and women. Just because he or she doesn’t meet your criteria and isn’t right for you doesn’t mean they aren’t good black men or women.

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  33. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    Symphony for President. 2016. "Dropping knowledge on fools since at least 2009" <<——winning campaign slogan

    Reply
  34. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    @Conni3I concede there are mentoring programs to help out black men but your example of letting us turn in papers late is would be cheating and my sister can tell you that she witnessed first hand how a professor of hers gave preferential treatment to women and let her turn papers in late. For every story you have of a black man given a break by turning in a late paper I can give you an example of a woman being given the same break.

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  35. Court Avatar
    Court

    "Also, people need to be careful with these sweeping generalizations about black men and women. Just because he or she doesn’t meet your criteria and isn’t right for you doesn’t mean they aren’t good black men or women."- SymphonyYou and I seem to be the only people who see something off with this. Compatibility isn’t as simple as comparing degrees and job titles. While education is important, a person not have a degree says nothing about their quality or goodness as an individual or potential partner. All these black women who are closing the door on men who aren’t comparatively formally educated and professionally "successful" (according to society’s standards) are being superficial. How many men and women end up adding to the divorce statistic even when they are supposedly aligned when it comes to education and status? Cosign, with the rest of what you said, by the way.

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  36. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    To Danielle BeltonI don’t think black women are totally to blame. If you saw my first post I blame all of black American culture. My problem is that black women complain about this as if they have absolutely nothing to do with the problem. The reason the focus is on black women is because they are the one complaining the most. Men, in general, don’t write books or articles complaining that they will never be able to find a "good" black women or that all the "good" black women are taken by white men, etc. The article you posted frames the issue as a problem black women will have regarding dating/marriage–it doesn’t focus on men having problems finding suitable women to date because we generally don’t complain as loudly.

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  37. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    @MSUEngineerI also am not going to fault the young girls who want people in high school who aren’t college-bound. However, the women can’t, on the one hand want these men when young, but then complain that there aren’t enough of those men to date/marry when they become professionals in their late 20’s and 30’s. They’ve contributed to the cycle that tells men not to prepare for college and professional life.

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  38. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @HULawyerI basically agree with what you just said to Danielle. And with regard to this:"they are the one complaining the most. Men, in general, don’t write books or articles complaining that they will never be able to find a "good" black women or that all the "good" black women are taken by white men, etc. "My hunch is that this part of it all goes back to gender roles. Men are taught to pursue and not complain about their dating circumstances, regardles of what they are. if a guy complains that he’s unsuccessful with a woman/women, he’ll get clowned by everyone around him, male and female, and told to man up and go "make it happen", "get you game together", or some other exhortation to find a solution to his dating woes. Overall this would be and is basically healthy for all people (not just men.) Gender roles teach women to be passive and basically to adopt a "review incoming applications and decide from there" approach. Liek an amployer of college admissiosn board deciding whom to hire or let in. So when they don’t receive the "apps" they would like, alot of women don’t know what to do next. Go out and holler at the dude you want? Eek. Examine what you might be doing to turn dudes off? As if. Gender roles having to do with dating really discourage proactive agency in women and encourage it in men. Anyone who deviates substantially from their prescibed dating role, male or female, will be scorned and punished by society at large.

    Reply
  39. Brandi Avatar
    Brandi

    "Where are the blue collar jobs that used to be there for a young black man when he finished high school in case college wasn’t an alternative?"I think blue collar jobs are still around. My husband have this conversation almost weekly when we have our "the problem with black folk" conversations. For some reason, the younger black generation turn their noses up at blue collar jobs. I don’t understand it – many of these jobs pay very nice salaries and there’s always the option to start your own business. We all preach go to college, get your degree, and then get a good job. But what if that just doesn’t work out? Some people are not college material. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t smart and capable. The problem is that these young men don’t even want to learn a trade. They’re not gonna let any joe blow be an electrician or a welder. So the jobs are there – the interest in them, not so much.

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  40. Miss B Avatar
    Miss B

    Um..don’t buy it. I am getting married next month and I can tell you that there are sistas that overlook the so called geek, dork, nerd, or just regular guy in college. They run after the popular jock, frat, or paid guy and then sit there sad when it doesnt work out. Lots of women also stay in worthless relationships that will not work out. Once they wake up, they realize they are over 30 with fewer prospects. Do not let the media tell you that you cannot find a good man and that there are not any good men out there. I work at a university and see many talented brothers out there. I also see many talented men out there that didn’t pursue higher education but are successful nevertheless. Also, let me say this….there are so many women that say they want this, that, and have to have this (speaking about my own gfs). But then they are 50 lbs overweight, have an attitude, and can’t cook, and the list goes on. If you want a King, you need to be a Queen first. Ignore the hype. Blk ppl are getting married everyday around us. You can too. Trust me, I have been there myself and bought into the hype. Then I realized the media will continue to try to mislead our ppl and lead you into think there is no hope. Don’t buy it and don’t feed into it or you will end up a bitter sister and it will be just a self fulfilling prophesy.

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  41. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @ Miss B"You can too"Perfectly, perfectly placed line. Thumbs up – would read again.

    Reply
  42. Symphony Avatar
    Symphony

    So true Brandi. President Obama spoke of the need for community colleges and trade schools. Every child is not college material and there should be more magnet type programs or career tracks in high schools. If a teen and his or her parents feel the trade route is the best and its what the child wants to do they should be able to do that. So instead of taking useless electives they can take trade courses like auto shop.If you can fix a car these days you that can have a very profitable business because people are trying to hold on to their cars, especially if they don’t have a car note like me. I know two auto repairmen with their own business. One travels to your house and the other has his own shop. Both own their own home and the one with the shop drives a nice car (BMW). But when women see him during the day, with his greased up clothes and dirty hands, many look the other way. A former neighbor is an electrician. Nice gig, always had a project with the city, schools, new homes, etc.

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  43. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    To Scipio AfricanusI agree with your point about gender roles. Since women are more passive and generally don’t like to approach men, they have no choice but to choose amongst whoever approaches them. Since men are more aggressive we have more control and are better able to find what we like. The more physically attractive a woman is, the more likely she will be approached by a man that is her type–whatever that is. I’ve advised many women that they need to stop complaining that they can’t find good men and become more aggressive and approach the type of them they like. Most of them give the same excuses about gender roles tell them it’s bad to do that, or they’re afraid that the men will think they’re sluts, etc. Which is fine if you’re too scared, but don’t complain that you can’t "find" a "good" man, because in reality, you’re not really trying to "find" one. They’re sitting and waiting to get lucky for a good man to find them. Women have no problem breaking other past gender taboos about going to college, voting, getting professional jobs, for example; all things that women were denied 100 years ago.

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  44. HULawyer Avatar
    HULawyer

    Kudos to Miss B and BrandiMiss, B you’re right, not everyone should go to college. I guess it’s really too much these days to ask kids to go to trade school. If I didn’t go to college I think I would have become an auto mechanic. I could still become one if I wanted to! 🙂 So many kids take education, whether it’s college or vocational school, for granted. I sometimes think we should eliminate compulsory school attendance; maybe that way people will appreciate school more rather than think it’s something worthless since it’s free.

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  45. David Wise Avatar
    David Wise

    You’ve just given me an idea, Danielle, to make some money. I’m starting an "African Lonely Hearts" dating service, connecting African-American females to brothers on the other continent. Memberships are free, ladies. Just fill out a profile and have your passport and visa available. Hee, hee

    Reply
  46. Brandi Avatar
    Brandi

    @Symphony – Here in Texas our school districts have collaborative deals with the community colleges. Students who live inside county lines can take college courses for FREE, those who live outside the county line can take them for $169 for 3 credit hours. These courses are offered as dual credit so it’s not like the student has to drive to another location. Can you believe that students aren’t breaking down the door to get into these courses? I must be missing something here. I’ve been married for 12 years so I don’t know just how dry things have gotten out there. My husband and I met working on a political campaign. He wasn’t my type and I classified him as a bit nerdy. I was in my early 20’s and thought I wanted that hip, urban-type of man in the fancy car. He persued me and eventually I gave in. I liked the way he spoke to me and I liked (and still do) the person I was (and am) with him. I guess I’m saying that I’m glad I didn’t overlook him b/c he didn’t meet my flawed criteria for men. No, women shouldn’t be the only blame – the door definately swings both ways. But I do have single girlfriends who have these outrageous expectations of men and don’t have much to offer in return or they are unwilling to offer anything.

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  47. Scipio Africanus Avatar
    Scipio Africanus

    @David,Nigerians scammers are all over the internet dating sites already (I’m the just the messenger). Nice try, though.

    Reply
  48. ChickfromYonkers Avatar
    ChickfromYonkers

    "It’s not a stereotype, it’s a reality that I have witnessed personally. I had a friend in law school who actually told me she like a guy with a little "thug" in him… "Wow HULawyer- you know some lady who comes out with that crap and you still call her your friend. She got into Law School? No wonder the two of you went to the same quality institution…And you reference 2 chicks- sounds like an empirical study to me!

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  49. Kenneth Avatar
    Kenneth

    Symphony,"Just because a woman is educated and independent doesn’t make her a good woman deserving of a good man. Those things make you financially desirable (maybe) , not emotionally and mentally desirable for a strong relationship and/or marriage. "This point is one of the most-overlooked aspects of the "oh-no-look-at-all-these-accomplished-Black-women-who-can’t-find-a-‘good-Black-man’" industry.And like Court I co-sign everything that you’ve said. Miss B,"I am getting married next month and I can tell you that there are sistas that overlook the so called geek, dork, nerd, or just regular guy in college. They run after the popular jock, frat, or paid guy and then sit there sad when it doesnt work out. Lots of women also stay in worthless relationships that will not work out. Once they wake up, they realize they are over 30 with fewer prospects."Didn’t Jenee Desmond Harris at the Root get in trouble for making this argument a few months ago?

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  50. Kenneth Avatar
    Kenneth

    Brandi,What I said to Symphony and Miss B I say to you as well.

    Reply

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